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Rolling road blocks will be in place for holy parade (From Hillingdon Times)
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Rolling road blocks will be in place for holy parade
11:10am Wednesday 11th February 2009
A HUGE annual procession through the centre of High Wycombe to mark a Muslim holy day will take place in March.
Rolling road closures will be put on place whilst the procession to mark the birthday of the Prophet Muhammad takes place around several streets in the town centre, on Sunday, March 15.
It will start from the Green Street Mosque, travel down Desborough Road and Bridge Street and onto Oxford Road and on to Castle Street.
From there worshippers will walk down Corporation Road, turn right along the High Street and into Paul's Row, then through the underpass and up to Wycombe Hospital where they will stop for short prayers for the sick.
From here they will make their way back to the Mosque in Green Street.
Roads closures will start from 11.30am and last until 2.30pm.
Sarah Widows, of Buckinghamshire County Council's Highways Department, said the parade is expected to take about two hours.
She said: "Rolling road closures will be in place. Police will stop traffic to allow the parade to pass, before reopening the road and allowing traffic to flow again."
See below for a map of the route.
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Your Say YourHT
Sniffy, Amsterdam says...
11:41am Wed 11 Feb 09
Elmo, High Wycombe says...
11:56am Wed 11 Feb 09
Security word: heat-risk
tom.marlow, marlow says...
12:57pm Wed 11 Feb 09
A couple of hrs of messing with the traffic on a sunday is no big deal.
If we want to think that we live in a tolerant society then we shouldnt have a problem with this. Its sets a good example to the religious fascists that run some of the other countries around the world.
DaveG, High Wycombe says...
1:31pm Wed 11 Feb 09
You make some very good points. However, I'm really not sure about the "tolerant society" thing anymore. What should you "tolerate"? Where do you draw the line? No, we don't want a restrictive, hush-hush society (like most Islamic countries, BTW) but the problem arises when religions such as Islam and Judaism start to mold the way we live our lives by taking advantage of how tolerant we are.
I'm just as guilty as the next agnostic to sitting back an watching and doing nothing. That's because I do not have the strong faith-based, anything-in-the-name
-of-my-religion motivation to get up and argue against the slow but sure changing of our culture.
The conundrum here is that, on one hand, I too want free speech and a "tolerant society" but, on the other, I don't want to see those very principles eroded because an old book (Koran, Bible, whatever) tells some people that they must live in that style and, importantly, convert non-believers wherever possible.
To me, it just feels like a step backwards some 200 years when we had problems with religion in the UK but got over it by a collective religious apathy.
Tatty, High Wycombe says...
1:35pm Wed 11 Feb 09
DaveG wrote:Why can't people just live in harmony together? I know a friend who lives in India, and he tells me the people of india are are so friendly, they have people from all different faiths living next door to each other and they all live peacefully! Why can't people respect other peoples faiths and not fire hate at them all the time? Its so unnecessary!! Theres no need for it!
Great. Another opportunity for a religion to show its ugly face and for other ugly religions to criticise it. Just look at all the major conflicts around the world. No longer caused by power-mad Hitler/Mussolini types but by religious maniacs. When will they join the rest of us in the modern 21st century, I wonder?
DaveG, High Wycombe says...
1:52pm Wed 11 Feb 09
pennman, Penn says...
1:56pm Wed 11 Feb 09
Elmo, High Wycombe says...
2:00pm Wed 11 Feb 09
However I much prefer a short, peaceful march round the block to the orgy of consumerism that the Christian faith rams down our throat every Winter solstice.
DaveG, High Wycombe says...
2:08pm Wed 11 Feb 09
faisal mahmood, sands says...
2:31pm Wed 11 Feb 09
DaveG wrote:Muslim like my self are nice friendly people its only small number of people that ruin it for all!
Tom,
You make some very good points. However, I'm really not sure about the "tolerant society" thing anymore. What should you "tolerate"? Where do you draw the line? No, we don't want a restrictive, hush-hush society (like most Islamic countries, BTW) but the problem arises when religions such as Islam and Judaism start to mold the way we live our lives by taking advantage of how tolerant we are.
I'm just as guilty as the next agnostic to sitting back an watching and doing nothing. That's because I do not have the strong faith-based, anything-in-the-name
-of-my-religion motivation to get up and argue against the slow but sure changing of our culture.
The conundrum here is that, on one hand, I too want free speech and a "tolerant society" but, on the other, I don't want to see those very principles eroded because an old book (Koran, Bible, whatever) tells some people that they must live in that style and, importantly, convert non-believers wherever possible.
To me, it just feels like a step backwards some 200 years when we had problems with religion in the UK but got over it by a collective religious apathy.
DaveG please stop talking rubbish from your mouth
faisal mahmood, sands says...
2:33pm Wed 11 Feb 09
DaveG wrote:I find your remarks nasty for a special event!
Great. Another opportunity for a religion to show its ugly face and for other ugly religions to criticise it. Just look at all the major conflicts around the world. No longer caused by power-mad Hitler/Mussolini types but by religious maniacs.
When will they join the rest of us in the modern 21st century, I wonder?
please dont comment any more!
faisal mahmood, sands says...
2:35pm Wed 11 Feb 09
faisal mahmood, sands says...
2:39pm Wed 11 Feb 09
smiley cat, High Wycombe says...
2:39pm Wed 11 Feb 09
Thank you to the organisers - this is a good thing!
bernaaard, Downley says...
3:02pm Wed 11 Feb 09
Christmas isn't purely for Christians, so i hope the Islamic community will extend the hand of peace to others with genuine interest as well ?
tom.marlow, marlow says...
3:02pm Wed 11 Feb 09
Shouldn't they respect the wishes of patients that do not wish to be prayed for?
Think about it logically. If the prayer were to actually have any effect, they would be intervening in the treatment of the patient without their consent. Even if they just believe that it works then it raises some serious ethical issues.
On the other hand if there is no real intent to generate supernatural intervention and all that is intended is an expression of good will and "best wishes for a speedy recovery" it might be more appropriate for them all to sign card or something and leave out the gods and prayers stuff as its not really relevent.
DaveG, High Wycombe says...
3:12pm Wed 11 Feb 09
This article is about a religious activity and if I feel that religion (not JUST Islam, as I clearly said) causes the world's worst problems then I should be allowed to say so.
Elmo, High Wycombe says...
3:27pm Wed 11 Feb 09
Not much blummin' chance of avoiding it, is there...
guilefox, Marlow says...
4:52pm Wed 11 Feb 09
guilefox, Marlow says...
5:02pm Wed 11 Feb 09
faisal mahmood, sands says...
5:25pm Wed 11 Feb 09
guilefox wrote:My English is good and i am not rude as you mention guilefox!
faisal mahmood, I find your comments (Which are of poor English grammar) rude and ignorant. I agree with Dave that all religions are dangerous weapons and often weak minded people are brainwashed by them and their views will turn extreme. However, I cannot tell anyone what to believe, just as faisal cannot tell others not to comment on here. I think it is commendable that they wish to donate money to the hospital. But what is the march actually going to achieve other than an inconvenience? Personally I would rather all religion be practiced in private, behind closed doors, not paraded in the streets like this. My personal religion is football, and I hope that this wont impact my Sunday morning match in High Wycombe. Otherwise I might have to get all the hooligans and their England flags out to celebrate the 1966 world cup win!
We Muslims are not dangerous weapons and are not weak minded people who are brainwashed by anyone!
The Judge, Stokenchurch says...
9:48pm Wed 11 Feb 09
THIS MARCH HAS BEEN SUPPORTED FOR OVER 20 YEARS AND IS IMPORTANT IN THE MUSLIM CALENDAR TO MARK THE BIRTHDAY OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD.
WE SHOULD CELEBRATE THE DIVERSE CULTURE THAT EXISTS IN HIGH WYCOMBE NOT UNLIKE PARTS OF LONDON AND USE THIS AS A CHANCE TO DEMONSTRATE TO THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD THAT WE SUPPORT THE RIGHT OF FREEDOM OF RELIGION.
WE CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS AND HAVE THE ANNUAL SWITCHING ON OF THE LIGHTS.
LETS REPLACE HATE IN OUR HEARTS WITH LOVE.
LETS FREE OURSELVES FROM AVARICE AND MATERIALISTIC GREED AND EMBRACE A NEW WORLD ORDER WHERE WE FIND OUR TRUE PATH IS LIES WITH PEACE AND FORGIVENESS RATHER THAN MERE FALSE GODS MASQUERADING AS MATERIALISTIC IDOLS.
JUDGE
Blueberry, S Bucks says...
9:57pm Wed 11 Feb 09
Steve Totteridge Hill, says...
10:13pm Wed 11 Feb 09
guilefox, Marlow says...
12:40am Thu 12 Feb 09
guilefox, Marlow says...
1:27am Thu 12 Feb 09
lot of innocent people died and opinion is still divided. But luckily the law was clear right?
This forum is about people giving their honest opinion. Let's look at your other comments on celebrating cultural diversity...
"Multiculturalism is of another era and should be scrapped" I believe that was the conclusion of
Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality (CRE) which was founded to promote exactly that!
He was speaking after the Bradford and Oldham riots of 2005. Ethnic and and non ethnic communities were leading
"parallel lives" the commissiom warned, many towns and cities were "sleepwalking to segregation". So thanks for
letting us know that you celebrate this still. But what is the relevance to this parade?
The simple fact is that alot of people feel it is harmless but an invconvenience. And an unnecessary expense too.
Look I didn't need to type in capital letters or waffle on in rhetoric that a southern state American preacher
would be proud of! (and yes in your ideal world, we can all agree with you). Back to reality.
Lets put our common sense hat on and look at the facts. Most British people in this country could be accused of being
tolerent to the extreme, however often under the surface lurks another more realistic opinion.
Elmo, High Wycombe says...
8:58am Thu 12 Feb 09
Good men do good things, evil men do evil things; but for a good man to do an evil thing, that takes religion.
DaveG, High Wycombe says...
9:41am Thu 12 Feb 09
Judge, you are shouting just like a preacher and reinforce exactly what is wrong with religion - you think you are right and everyone else is wrong, especially if someone questions your blind faith.
We now roll out well-worn phrases such as "diverse culture" without actually thinking what they mean. "Diverse" actually means "different" but has been hijacked by cliche-users to mean "inclusive". We have divergent cultures moving apart, not moving together, threatening to break up the tolerance and the lack of religious fervour that has taken centuries to build up in the UK. The last thing we need now are "diverse cultures" all pulling in opposite directions instead of trying to work/live together.
This parade is just an excuse for people to show their collective pride in something other than being a UK citizen. Let's remember that followers of these strict religions are the least tolerant people around. How will you people feel in 50 years when you are told: you can't drink alcohol, you can't show your faces (if female), you have to eat meat killed in an inhumane manner and you must treat stone adulterers to death (but only if they are women)?
Elmo, High Wycombe says...
10:11am Thu 12 Feb 09
Geeza, Prestwood says...
10:15am Thu 12 Feb 09
pumpkin, High Wycombe says...
12:28pm Thu 12 Feb 09
tom.marlow, marlow says...
1:20pm Thu 12 Feb 09
It displays disregard for and disrespect of my views.
Some years ago, when my mother was in hospital dying, the hospital chaplain came to her and asked "would you like me to pray for you ?" to with my mother replied "thats very kind but no thank you" - they then went on to talk about all sorts of other things. Polite and respectful on both sides.
DaveG, High Wycombe says...
2:10pm Thu 12 Feb 09
Just because someone doesn't agree with your views doesn't automatically make them scum. Grow up and read a dictionary.
Elmo, High Wycombe says...
3:45pm Thu 12 Feb 09
DaveG, High Wycombe says...
4:36pm Thu 12 Feb 09
Elmo, High Wycombe says...
5:07pm Thu 12 Feb 09
tom.marlow, marlow says...
5:44pm Thu 12 Feb 09
pumpkin, High Wycombe says...
6:04pm Thu 12 Feb 09
tom.marlow, marlow says...
6:49pm Thu 12 Feb 09
pumpkin wrote:To keep lexical pedantry going they are "Mormons" not "Mormans", but I'm sure you know that.
Re debate about praying for someone without their permission. Perhaps you should turn your attention to the Mormans (Church of Latter Day Saints). They trace their ancestors (and anyone they think may be an ancestor) and baptise them into the Morman church regardless of whether they are Catholics, Atheists, Buddists etc. This is truly objectionable.
While I agree that raises essentially the same ethical issues, they are not proposing to do it outside Wycombe General Hospital, which is the subject of this story. If they were I would be perhaps turn my attention to them.
You cant justify some questionable actions by pointing to someone else doing something more questionable.
Actually, I cant help but have a sneaking admiration for the Mormons. They live, mostly quite happily, practicing a really whacky religion in one of the most beautiful parts of a country that has secular principles enshrined in its constitution. They seem to be able to carry this off without upsetting people too much.
But as pumpkin says non-consensual baptism is well out of order. Even if they are very polite about it.
wayneo, bucks says...
9:26pm Thu 12 Feb 09
tom.marlow wrote:I still cannot understand, how adults can believe in the existance of a God and that their own existance is dependant on this unseen parology of faith. Although an Atheist, it does not bother me who they pray for, their FAITH (and that's all consumers of religion have), is meaningful but to them. If praying to the unknown floats their boat then hey, who am I to stop them.
ffs, I'm trying to get some debate going here about the ethics of praying for someone without their consent and all you guys can do is argue about the spelling and apostrophisation of "D'urhhh!"
What however I do object to and I do see where you are coming from Tom, is the indoctrination of young minds into adopting a particular faith, especially where the receipients are threatened with the burning fires of hell as retribution for non-believers.
I wonder how many of those who are citing the books of faith, the Qu-ran,scriptures, bible etc as being peaceful, have ever read them. Personally, Scientology is more believable.
tom.marlow, marlow says...
9:39pm Thu 12 Feb 09
Now there is someone who has really delivered some insight into where we come from and our relationship to the world around us.
Az-R, High Wycombe says...
12:24am Fri 13 Feb 09
This Parade is something which I’m pretty sure the Muslim Community feels actually shows Islam as peaceful friendly religion (and welcome to all) as opposed to all the anti-Islam material being shown over the last 10 years or so and to be honest the donation shouldn’t make any difference to justifying it, because the real issue is fear. Dave G’s comments about “how would you feel in 50 years….” Just proves it.
I have a Faith, yes, but does that make me dangerous? The simple answer is no. There are many factors not related to religion which make a good man do something evil. For example, would you use a gun to kill someone…? I’ll assume the answer is No. What if your loved one was at gunpoint and the gunmen was just about to shoot. Would you hesitate to shoot to kill the gunmen?
Also let’s take Tom. Marlow’s last comment about Darwin. Surely if Evolution was a true phenomenon then we would have discovered bodies/ skeletons of those that were in the transformational state? But we haven’t. The earliest/ oldest specimen found is exactly like our body skeletons today. Not to mention he was caught out for the Hoax of a skull. So who’s brainwashing who exactly? But my point is you won’t find anyone against the idea of a parade (like some people on here) for Darwin because we supposedly live in a fair democratic society.
With regards to praying for somebody without their consent…are you guys actually being serious? You guys are really making a mountain out of a molehill. If the believers are so wrong then why does it wind you up? After all everybody has the right to believe in whatever they want to and who is anybody to say what is ethical or not? With regards to tax payer’s money, let’s be honest, the Council will charge us whatever they want regardless of how or where the money is spent.
Let’s forget the words ‘Diverse’, ‘Cultural’, ‘Religion’ or all the worldly things that make us different Instead lets remember the world ‘Education’ and ‘Knowledge’ and ‘Freewill’. Take the time to actually study the Quran, Bible, Torah etc and each other, before making shock statements about a certain religion/ belief. You’ll be surprised how different the actual content/context of these books is from what we see and hear everyday. The days of forcing people to change religions are long gone, ask anyone with a faith if they were forced into it and you’ll soon find out.
DaveG, High Wycombe says...
9:39am Fri 13 Feb 09
Your post shows exactly what is wrong with religions - you simply can't see that many (most in the UK) really don't give a stuff about religion and we would prefer religion took place only in the privacy of homes/churches, synagogues/mosques. It's when religions start trying to influence/change the rest of us at work, school, in the street, at the pub that I get really angry. Sure, let's have rules and laws that are created to help society and for people to live with a decent moral code, but not just because they are written in an old book with no scientific proof. You, yourself, were quoting lack of proof against Darwin's theories - how about a lack of proof for Jesus/Mohammed/Angel
s/prophets? Conveniently forgotten becuase it does not fit in with you faith.
tom.marlow, marlow says...
9:41am Fri 13 Feb 09
Couple of points.
re Darwin - no matter how much anti-evolutionists claim there is no evidence of transitional fossils, there actually is a huge amount and denying its existence doesnt make it go away.
re praying. The issue is not whether I believe it works or not. Its whether you (or whoever is doing the praying) does. If you do then you are asking your god to intervene in my life without my consent. Thats what I find to be unethical.
Clearly, as there is no evidence that it works then its not really a big deal. Its the intent that bothers me.
Geeza, Prestwood says...
9:47am Fri 13 Feb 09
This parade is seen by many as ramming Islam in the faces of people. White British people are more than tolerant. You just try handing Bibles out in Dubai - you'll be arrested for it (and yes its happened). You try saying one thing against a Muslim person and they will be protesting in the streets or growing terrorists to meet their ends.
If Muslims want to be respected in native Britain then start reaching out to people instead of putting up walls, creating barriers, not being tolerant and ramming Islam down our throats.
This parade is a good idea but I haven't seen any efforts in the community for it to be inclusive, tolerant and culturally sensitive.
This is a shame. I would love to attend and learn more about Muslims in Wycombe but we only see you and don't know you.
Steve Totteridge Hill, says...
9:52am Fri 13 Feb 09
tom.marlow, marlow says...
10:05am Fri 13 Feb 09
Steve Totteridge Hill wrote:I don't think it is inherently racist. I'm not aware of it being banned for that reason.
I wonder how many would support a St. Georges day parade... hang on wasn't it banned because of being racist?
The problem is that the St George flag etc tends to get hijacked by racists.
Geeza, Prestwood says...
10:20am Fri 13 Feb 09
What is important here is that in a tolerant society St Georges Parades and Muslim parades should be allowed.
By giving one and not the other only creates further alienation and resentment.
Elmo, High Wycombe says...
10:51am Fri 13 Feb 09
Geeza, Prestwood says...
10:51am Fri 13 Feb 09
Evolution does exist. In fact some have suggested that religion is an evolutionary construct because religious belief helped our ancestors form tightly knit groups that cooperated in hunting, foraging and childcare, enabling these groups to outcompete others. In this way, the theory goes, religion was selected for by evolution, and eventually permeated every human society.
That aside - many skeletons have been found to demonstrate the relationship between modern humans and pre-historic, neanderthal man and beyond.
Elmo, High Wycombe says...
10:53am Fri 13 Feb 09
Didn't St. George hail from the middle east?
Geeza, Prestwood says...
11:00am Fri 13 Feb 09
Saint George was born to a Christian noble family during the late third century between about 275 AD and 285 AD, in Lydda, PALESTINE. His father Geronzio was a Roman army official from Cappadocia and his mother from Palestine. They were both Christians and from noble families of Anici (which means "can not be defeated"), so by this the child was raised with Christian beliefs. They decided to call him George meaning "worker of the land".
St. George is the patron saint of Aragon, Catalonia, England, Ethiopia, Georgia, Greece, Lithuania, Palestine, Portugal, and Russia, as well as the cities of Amersfoort, Beirut, Bteghrine, Cáceres, Ferrara, Freiburg, Genoa, Ljubljana, Gozo, Pomorie, Qormi, Lod and Moscow,
tom.marlow, marlow says...
11:13am Fri 13 Feb 09
I think the main problem with St Georges day is that the only people who can be bothered to organise parades are the extreme right (although do the scouts still do them ? They used to a long time ago when I was in the scouts and there were still dragons around).
Anyway I hope you all enjoy the parade and happily celebrate the birth of your preferred prophet. I hope the weather is good for you.
I now realise a logical flaw in my concern about non consensual prayer receipt - if your god is as omniscient and benevolent as you seem to believe then she will be fully aware of anyones discomfort at being on the receiving end of any prayers and will act to divert them away from such people.
Az-R, High Wycombe says...
11:28am Fri 13 Feb 09
With regards to actually not increasing your knowledge on a subject- that really comes across as being narrow minded and almost arrogant. Despite what was rammed down your throat during your childhood, you should be looking to empower your mind especially if as you say you are a logical person. I myself was never interested in History in school, but now in my 30’s am finding it to be very interesting. People’s priorities and views change as they mature – you know that.
Steve, I think you’ll find that St Georges Day is actually on the calendar, so if anybody was actually bothered, I’m sure a parade could be organised.
Tom, I agree with you regarding the ethical issue, but really I didn’t feel it’s that important. Your statement regarding proof of Evolution can be also be said about religion as well.
Geeza, where have you been? The WDC and TVP have been trying very hard to integrate the community and there are many workshops which are designed to educated non-Muslims about Islam in a logical sense. Not to convert – but to improve understanding.
I myself am British, so what you say could be construed as causing a division by saying US British and YOU Muslims. We all live in and around High Wycombe, probably even use the same shops, petrol station etc. I know that many older generation Muslims don’t interact, but remember they came over to the UK 30/40 years ago and held onto their culture, could not speak the language etc. You’ll find 2nd generation Muslims like me more educated and willing to be friends because this is what we know from growing up in the UK – our culture.
I actually also have family in Dubai and so know it very well. I’ll think you agree that wherever we go in the world people are different – no more so than the Arab’s, and as such we should respect the law of the land. Dubai is an Islamic City, so understandably the Arabs are a little strict, but the fact that you can buy alcohol and Pork, all be it at certain times and places, in the UAE just shows that they are being tolerant to other peoples views as well. With the number of Ex-Pats now exceeding the local Arab population, it is becoming a very popular place to be right now and I am sure will become a more tolerant place. Can the same also be said about Texas, USA? Think about it.
Az-R, High Wycombe says...
11:48am Fri 13 Feb 09
Elmo, High Wycombe says...
12:03pm Fri 13 Feb 09
DaveG, High Wycombe says...
12:13pm Fri 13 Feb 09
I've done a lot of reading into lots of religions over the years so I cannot be accused of being narrow-minded. That's the beauty of the net - you can get views from both sides of the argument quite easily. There is absolutely nothing I have read about organised relgions that makes me see them as anything other than out of date and irrelevant.
As someone who comes across as an intelligent, eloquent individual it is a shame that you are living in the shadow of a faith that is, at the end of the day, controlled by senior figures (just like Catholicism, Judaism) who are after two things: control and power.
You have faith - I respect that, as long as I'm not expected to live by your rules. I don't have faith - but religious people can't respect that as it's against their religion. If I was to organise a march through town renouncing all religions there would be uproar and a fatwah or two.
Az-R, High Wycombe says...
12:47pm Fri 13 Feb 09
DaveG, High Wycombe says...
1:24pm Fri 13 Feb 09
http://www.independe
nt.co.uk/opinion/com
mentators/johann-har
i/johann-hari-despit
e-these-riots-i-stan
d-by-what-i-wrote-16
08059.html
Please don't say this wouldn't happen in the UK and these are extremists. It's all part of religion's uncanny knack at taking offence at everything.
tom.marlow, marlow says...
1:49pm Fri 13 Feb 09
DaveG wrote:Thanks for that Dave. Very good article. Be interesting to see if anyone disagrees with it.
I wish that were the case. Freewill for everyone to have their say. However, many of your fellow Muslims do not see it that way. It's their view only, otherwise it's riots, death threats and worse. http://www.independe nt.co.uk/opinion/com mentators/johann-har i/johann-hari-despit e-these-riots-i-stan d-by-what-i-wrote-16 08059.html Please don't say this wouldn't happen in the UK and these are extremists. It's all part of religion's uncanny knack at taking offence at everything.
Az-R, High Wycombe says...
3:54pm Fri 13 Feb 09
The first thing to remember is that to be part of a group/faction/religi
on you need to fulfil certain criteria, for example could I call myself a vegetarian and still eat chicken? Of course not. The same applies with Islam. It is a way of life and does not advocate violence, death threats, or even threatening somebody with a damned existence in hell etc for not agreeing with them. Nobody knows that!
The people that tend to do these things do so through emotion with no real idea of how it is diluting the actual message. As I said in my earlier posts, education is key because what is actually taught by this “old” book makes a lot of sense for many people, including myself. Not because I follow it blindly, but because I challenge it on a frequent basis. It keeps me centred in my existence.
You are right Dave G, that some of the people that call themselves Muslims think only from their own viewpoint, and that is wrong. If anything all religions, not just Islam, actually want us – people of the earth, to challenge them and ask questions. These days an intellectual debate can be and have been organised without any trouble.
If you want scientific proof then there is lots of literature out there, mainly written by non-Muslims that confirm certain things from the Quran and elsewhere.
So my point is simple. Yes you have the right to be angry towards unfair people, but it is not fair to dismiss a religion such as Islam just because some of the people that represent it, strictly speaking, miss the point and misuse it.
jch45, says...
11:27am Mon 16 Feb 09
Children and parents from all over the country parade through the Black Country town waving St George flags and marching to rousing anthems such as Jerusalem.
Organisers say one of the aims is to reclaim the Saint George Cross from Right-wingers and make it a source of pride for all.
Sandwell council decided to ban this parade , when are the people of britain going to wake up to the islamifacation Britain,
J B Blackett, High Wycombe says...
6:28pm Mon 16 Feb 09
But people have very stubborn belief in the systems they have been born and brought up with - otherwise perhaps most English people would not have a Christian background, Indian / Pakistan born folk would not be Hindus or Moslems and so on
That's the reason things are as they are - it's not a mystery.
All I have experienced in life proves to me that nearly all (99 % ) of all people are good and well-intentioned to their fellow human-beings whatever are their backgrounds.
The nasty 1% are at all levels of society (perhaps there's a higher proportional number at the political and senior banker level , who's to say)
So to conclude , I would say that you will not persuade anybody with deep-rooted entrenched views about anything (particularly in the spiritual field as you are seen to be attacking their belief systems and way of life). Their views have been acquired via the teachings of the Wise Men or Prophets of their own faith - it is very difficult to loosen the ties that bind one to your ancestors religion.
One last thing - I am appreciative all the differences / points of view of the diverse people in this area expressed above.
I'd hate to be part of a monolithic homogeneous society - but I will NOT be joining any band / group that thinks it's superior or more powerful than any of the other lot(s).
Elmo, High Wycombe says...
9:54am Tue 17 Feb 09
Geeza, Prestwood says...
10:19am Tue 17 Feb 09
What is important here is that in a tolerant society St Georges Parades and Muslim parades should be allowed.
By giving one and not the other only creates further alienation and resentment.
Az-R, High Wycombe says...
4:15pm Tue 17 Feb 09
To join a group because they think they are superior to the rest would be the wrong reason to join.
I was born into a Pakistani Muslim Family which I would say did influence my choice (if I am honest), but being an inquisitive person I started questioning my identity which led me to study other faiths and belief systems. I believe in Islam (as I am sure anybody with a Faith will agree), because it helps me justify my existence, and having studied other faiths, it is the one that makes most sense to me.
Unfortunately, as you say people are naturally defensive when it comes to criticism (especially about deep rooted beliefs) and that won’t change. We can only try to put an intellectual argument across which will hopefully inform and help people understand what we (Humans) are about.
The whole purpose of putting a post on here was to let people know that there are always 2 sides to a story, and it is always a good idea to listen to both and thus make an informed decision, and also to point out that there are many Muslims out there like myself who ARE prepared to have an intellectual debate.
Baba Ji, High Wycombe says...
5:36pm Tue 17 Feb 09
Perhaps an excellent opportunity for the chaps to distribute their leaflets on the 15th of March when all the wonderful people of this great town will be out in force – praying for the sick, etc and a chance to further develop community cohesion and the prevention of violent extremism.
wayneo, bucks says...
8:45pm Tue 17 Feb 09
Az-R wrote:Firstly I second Tom's comments with regards to your posts. While you are inquisitive and obviously intelligent enough to question yours and other faiths, unfortunately there are those that should they question their faith, would suffer grave consequences for so doing. Notwithstanding that, there are those who are easily manipulated by those with a source of power, we are all subject to it, however those with faith or a sense of patronism are easier to control for they are already bound by their respective belonging. Obviously such control can be used for good which I believe is what religion intended,in the obverse however, can be used for bad.
J B Blackett, I totally agree with your post. To join a group because they think they are superior to the rest would be the wrong reason to join. I was born into a Pakistani Muslim Family which I would say did influence my choice (if I am honest), but being an inquisitive person I started questioning my identity which led me to study other faiths and belief systems. I believe in Islam (as I am sure anybody with a Faith will agree), because it helps me justify my existence, and having studied other faiths, it is the one that makes most sense to me. Unfortunately, as you say people are naturally defensive when it comes to criticism (especially about deep rooted beliefs) and that won’t change. We can only try to put an intellectual argument across which will hopefully inform and help people understand what we (Humans) are about. The whole purpose of putting a post on here was to let people know that there are always 2 sides to a story, and it is always a good idea to listen to both and thus make an informed decision, and also to point out that there are many Muslims out there like myself who ARE prepared to have an intellectual debate.
Have a look of century of the self, I'm sure you would find it interesting.
http://video.google.
com/videoplay?docid=
8953172273825999151
tom.marlow, marlow says...
8:45am Wed 18 Feb 09
wayneo, bucks says...
10:07am Wed 18 Feb 09
Baba Ji, High Wycombe says...
3:05pm Wed 18 Feb 09
wayneo, bucks says...
11:18am Thu 19 Feb 09
tom.marlow, marlow says...
4:31pm Thu 19 Feb 09
J B Blackett, High Wycombe says...
7:37pm Thu 19 Feb 09
wayneo wrote:Wayneo - Your understanding of (with ?) physics and science is commendable however pls have regard for the elegance and discipline of Mathematics also .
A rare trip to the natural history museum puts things into perspective for me. When one considers the oldest rocks are 3.8-3.9 Billion years old, Christianity is some 2000 years old and Islam some 800 after that, The religious texts make for good reading, It seems logical for me, to place my faith or should I say understanding, with physics and science.
Jesus was (reputably) 30+ when he was killed so Christianity is not yet 2000 years old (up until then the key people in the area were mostly Jewish , Roman , Pagan etc.
Also the Founder of Islam started his religion (reputably) at about 610 AD so you're a few centuries short in your calculations there.
I apologize for being a bit pedantic , but I place my faith in 'pure' maths
Regards
tom.marlow, marlow says...
9:19pm Thu 19 Feb 09
I've always taken faith to mean belief in something without evidence (or often despite contradictory evidence) and without any rigour.
Science gives us the evidence and mathematics the formalism to reason from it. No faith required.
Am I being even more pedantic here?
J B Blackett, High Wycombe says...
11:49pm Thu 19 Feb 09
To pursue my pedantry even further , the faith I referred to is that which has the meaning of trust and confidence. That is the faith one can have in people , machinery , scientific systems or disciplines like maths etc - these things & concepts are concrete and provable and of substance.
I put to you the faith you refer to is what I would call to as blind faith. This type of faith is a belief in something that is unsubstantiated , unprovable and (usually) received 2nd , 3rd hand , umpteenth hand or passed on from remote sources possibly way back in history.
These are what are now called belief systems (some people still call them faiths)
That's what I believe (I think).
tom.marlow, marlow says...
8:36am Fri 20 Feb 09
wayneo, bucks says...
9:41am Fri 20 Feb 09
J B Blackett wrote:That's why I said "some" 2000 years old, the qualifier being some for both ; you were of course right to pick me up on it though :-) That said, I too agree with your last post.
wayneo wrote: A rare trip to the natural history museum puts things into perspective for me. When one considers the oldest rocks are 3.8-3.9 Billion years old, Christianity is some 2000 years old and Islam some 800 after that, The religious texts make for good reading, It seems logical for me, to place my faith or should I say understanding, with physics and science.Wayneo - Your understanding of (with ?) physics and science is commendable however pls have regard for the elegance and discipline of Mathematics also . Jesus was (reputably) 30+ when he was killed so Christianity is not yet 2000 years old (up until then the key people in the area were mostly Jewish , Roman , Pagan etc. Also the Founder of Islam started his religion (reputably) at about 610 AD so you're a few centuries short in your calculations there. I apologize for being a bit pedantic , but I place my faith in 'pure' maths Regards
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DaveG, High Wycombe says...
11:40am Wed 11 Feb 09
When will they join the rest of us in the modern 21st century, I wonder?